Bengy. I think before you become authoritative to comment on grades, you need to climb most of the rock types (to name a few:gritstone, sand, lime, granite, gabbro, shale, greywacke, micro schist, rhyolite, basalt, conglomerate) and at least 50 different crags up and down in England, Wales, Scotland and preferrably in Ireland as well. Then, you'll have a better idea about grades in different parts of the country.

Tiger's Wall is HVS 5a. To prove my point, check out what I call a consensus on UKC Tiger's Wall logbook from 10 out of 14 votes. That is overwhelmingly 71.4% majority that recognise it should be HVS.

Tacitation is VS 5a. No argue with that. The crux is just off the ground. No immediate danger. Tiger's Wall is different.

Check out also what this topic is about - the Rockfax Northern England guide on Callerhue section about grades. They say people in the 70's graded the short routes in Northumberland with a lower adjectival grade. Now explains something. Borrow Andy's copy to read about it. Get it?

Calm down Kin. I don’t claim to be an authority or have any knowledge on how routes are graded. I have only climbed on Grit, limestone and sandstone, nowhere near your obvious supreme understanding of rock all over the world . But I have climbed all the routes which are being discussed. That gives me some right to have a view on them. On the aforementioned rock types I’ve lead all the grades up to and including E2. Therefore I have a beginners understanding of the different levels of difficulty each grade involves, the boldness and the seriousness etc. Tigers is a short route, with a flat grassy landing, with monster holds.

How many HVS routes have you done in order to think Tigers is also that grade? It’s VS. But as always with anything and everything I say it’s IN MY OPINION. You’re not right and I’m not right. We are just speculating. Put it up to HVS and it can be a rubbish soft at the grade tick every HVS leader will get – or keep it at is current VS and it remains an astounding VS which can be a real test of the a climbers ability.

I don’t want to argue and ones knickers in such a twist over something which, at the end of the day, really isn’t that important!

I don't exactly know how many HVSs I've climbed in this country. Just a guess, maybe 40-50, long, short, single, multi, etc. The last HVS 5a sprung to mind (not recent one) I climbed in Cornwall last summer was called Variety Show in Great Zawn, Bosigran. It's a classic, flake/crack main pitch that should definitely warrant HVS 5a. It's steep and some technical moves BUT it has good pros throughout. Never thin with no gear.

Near to home, another HVS 5a that springs to mind is Mangler in Causey Quarry near Stanley. I've climbed it (led) at least two occasions as well as top roping once or twice. The crux move is near the bottom; about 5m off the ground BUT it's well protected from top to bottom and offers good rests in a couple of places after the crux. I wouldn't change the grade for those routes mentioned. But one thing is clear, those two HVSs are nowhere as runout (spacey) as Tiger's Wall.

I've even done a fair few E1 5a's which are less runout/scary/thin than Tiger's Wall. Tiger Feet at Corby's being one. Certificate X on Peel Crag being another.

Having said that, I've also done a great deal of HVS 5a's which are much more strenous than Tiger's Wall. Also, there are many VS 5a's knocking about which are much more "positive" than Tiger's Wall.

Interesting that you should mention Tigers Feet and Certificate X, possibly the softest E1's in the county. Tigers Feet was originally given VS by the FA, I think HVS is correct - one 5a move, protected, short and not strenuous. I led Certificate X in the late 60's on a damp mizzly day. There was no gear from low down on the shoulder until above the crux and it was very bold indeed; we did Rock Island Line on the same day and they both felt pretty hard. I've done both since on better days with better gear and Cert X is at least a grade easier than R.I.L. HVS 5a is about right (it's original grade, by the way)

ps I've done zillions of VS's in the Lakes, Northumberland and Scotland and a few in Wales and the Peak. Tigers is harder than many but easier than many. As was normal at teh time, there was little gear so maybe that's why the dispute. If you're comfortable with little gear, then Tigers is a fairly straightforward VS, if not it must be quite scary and feel hard. I find Lorraine much harder.

I am only contributing to this pointless debate because I am on the train bored.
I onsight soloed TW many years ago when I had only been climbing a year or two and not led more than Hvs. You boulder the bottom bit and then think I might as well carry on to the top cos its a good line and looks easy. So you do. VS I think.

richard.pow wrote:

QUOTE:
I am only contributing to this pointless debate because I am on the train bored.

Yep, as you do. When you're bored and can't go climbing, you go on the internet like here to debate pointlessly. Actually, it isn't pointless. This exercise in fact shows how people understand grading differently. Now that proves a point.

So what do people think about Rockfax Northern England? The usual Rockfax photodiagrams are definitely excellent. Who would read a whole page before you work out which niche to climb in order to gain the minute pinnacle the size of a drawing pin these days?

Get a grip!Stop winging about grades and have a go at Rockfax for ripping off our guide!

AndyBirt wrote:

QUOTE:
Get a grip!Stop winging about grades and have a go at Rockfax for ripping off our guide!

That's the real problem you pointed out precisely. It's only OUR Northumberland guide. Nobody else from elsewhere contributed any comments. Only the minority of the club or maybe a few people in the region. That's the problem to keep the views and grades more objective (consensus)!

This grades issue has been chewed and chewed until the bone is almost gone.Consensus grades were used for the last two guides! People's grading also changes over the years Try doing a route in big boots and no chalk using pebbles for chocks.
It doesnt matter!!
A grade is a grade.
Rockfax choose to do what they do.
Why are we arguing about grades?
This is meant to be about a private company publishing our information for profit not about grades.
Get a life and go climb instead